I would like the input of current and recent riders in the Gravel Intermediate class.
This year we’ve seen the speeds of both the Fast and Intermediate groups increase which has been good and made for some challenging rides for many over the past few months. We’ve also had several new members join this year and have had a tremendous turnout to all rides. All great stuff!!
That being said, I want to keep in mind those who have ridden with us in the past who we’ve not seen come out this year. My desire is to ensure that all who want to ride, have a group they can enjoy it with.
So I’d love to hear from you on the below items. Feel free to message me directly if you wish to keep your comments private.
If you’ve been joining the Intermediate rides this year, how have you found the pace? How about the distance?
If you’ve not been joining this year, what has kept you away?
I’ve solidly enjoyed the distance and pace this year. But I do have some thoughts on this topic.
Looking back at the gravel rides we’ve done in 2025, the int group usually ended up averaging 28-29 kph. It’s IMO inaccurate to call the group and rides “intermediate” anymore. In comparison, the road intermediate group (or G4) usually does a pace of 28-30kph, when they are a much tighter group riding on a smoother surface with better draft.
There is a gap in the gravel groups. You have Rec+ that does low 20s and then the next group does 28kph. If I were new to the club and capable of doing, say 23 kph solo on gravel, I’d be looking for a gravel group doing 25kph give or take. Currently no such group exists. If I were to show up on these “intermediate” rides, I’d probably get dropped and be discouraged when the gravel intermediate rides are advertised to be 24-26kph. In fact, I know this was the real experience of someone who joined this year.
Perhaps we need more granular definitions of gravel groups and expected speeds, similar to what the roadies have. Spitballing here but maybe something like:
G1: 32+
G2: 30-32
G3: 27-29
G4 / Int: 24-26
Rec+: low 20s
We have a good thing going with the gravel groups. Early this year the intermediate group had very low attendance, but these days many people are showing up for the short route on Wednesday. We have a solid core group interested in these ~28kph gravel rides. I think it’s a great idea to start this conversation and encourage more folks to join.
Great questions! I’m mostly a roadie but very interested in getting into gravel too. I’m new to it and don’t have all the bike handling skills and experience that might be needed on any given gravel ride. I’ve been watching the rides since they started this year thinking intermediate would be the spot for me but the speeds kept increasing to the point where I don’t feel I could keep up as an intermediate rider. I’d like to see more clarity in categories as this would help me feel confident coming out to a ride as a gravel newbie.
That said I know it’s not always easy to keep a certain speed and I understand that different groups can have different dynamics - same thing happens in the road groups.
I’m just very appreciative that you’re asking the question! That alone is a welcoming sign
I have stopped coming out because I cannot longer keep up. Combination of ageing out and the increased speeds that these rides are being ridden at. When I was leading these rides they were always advertised as no drop rides and expected average speeds for the groups were posted. This seems to no longer be the case so it maybe that it has evolved as a go as fast as you can or be dropped ride. I have done a few of the Thursday night rides and the paste in Rec+ works but Wednesday night works better for me so would like to see a broader offering of groups going forward.
I usually am a regular at the Wednesday night rides and would do the occasional Saturday if the distance wasn’t too far. I could not ride this year due to back issues.
I would always ride with the intermediate group and when different routes were offered I preferred the shorter rides. I was in the group with Jim. Last year I noticed the speed increasing and started only attending rides if Jim was also going, that way I knew I’d have someone to ride with. Most people went in the “fastermediate” group, often leaving a small intermediate group of myself, Jim, and 1 or 2 more people. It makes the rides longer when you only have a few people as you get no break from the wind. It was also very disheartening when the group would stick together but the “fastermediate” riders would set the pace. This would result in me getting dropped eventhough I was maintaining the intermediate pace. Like Jim this made me not want to attend these rides unless I knew there would be a group for me.
This also makes it hard for new riders or riders in rec that want to move up to intermediate. From what other people are saying it sounds like there was no true intermediate group this year. This leaves a large gap from rec to the “fastermediate” group.
I often get priced out of the fast group so this experience isn’t all too foreign to me either. And its frustrating.
Without big numbers, this will always be a hard problem to solve, imo.
Spitballing some solutions –
Hypothesis: Knowing that at least one person will be there is a great motivator in getting people out.
Solution: Steve leading the rides have been great!! It would be even better if we have more people volunteering to be ride leaders. And providing the assurance that there will at least be one person to ride with. The cost of community is inconvenience. I know I ask a lot. But I think it can be rewarding!
Hypothesis: Strictly enforcing a split at the beginning of the ride and going a fixed pace despite who shows up or doesn’t is a great motivator in getting people out. That is, the assurance that there will be a ride at the 23-25kph range guaranteed even if its just 2 people? And no (or minimal) negotiations or “lets start as one”s at the start?
Both these ideas suffer from the same tradeoff – Is it still fun if the group ride is just 2-3 people? Sabrina doesnt think so. And Im honestly of the same opinion.
Just to throw my 2 cents in: I’m new to the club this year and have been out with both the Rec+ and on a few occasions the Intermediate group.
I’m in agreement that there’s a gap to be filled between the Rec+ and Intermediate group (at their current pace, which is a bit quick for me to maintain over 40-50km) and would absolutely show up regularly for a moderate intermediate group ride that targets a 25km/h pace.
Sounds like there might be potential to build some critical mass here?
Hi everyone, One of the goals of Rec+ was to be a stepping stone to intermediate. Of course course, if there isn’t a regular intermediate group, stepping up will be a problem. I’m glad we are having this discussion.
The skills and fitness of Rec+ have been picking up. We have also been doing less dilly-dallying at corners, so our moving average pace has been in the mid 20’s for the last few regular rides.
We intentionally have Rec on a different night than Intermediate + Fast to avoid fast riders dropping back to Rec+ and blowing up the group like Sabrina describes. When I was leading intermediate, the group chose to start half an hour before the fast group for the same reason.
I would like to ride more with the intermediates on Wednesdays, but for me the rides tend to be too long (time wise), resulting in them finishing too late. Generally I would like to be back to the start within two hours including a little padding for a mechanical.
A couple of thoughts and observations as a new member:
I really like the distance and pace but can definitely see the gap between Rec+ and the “intermediate”. To Ziyan’s point, perhaps we look to add a G4 group to bridge said gap.
The polls are awesome to see who’s going, and at what distance. A few times we’ve showed up to the start planning to do what’s been posted and suddenly there’s a plan for everyone to start together or multiple groups are randomly breaking out. For me it’s not a big deal but I can imagine for some people, being new to group riding and having last minute curve balls thrown could be enough to turn them off of the group ride. I guess this is a long winded way of saying, sticking to the plan posted on the forum would be a good thing.
It’s been awesome getting to know a lot of you this year! Thanks for getting the convo started, Steve.
It’s great to see how a community group can foster improvements to the collective speed and fitness of its regular participants across ride categories.
I’ve enjoyed a few threshold-paced intermediate Wednesday night rides that have really pushed my limits, and though I do enjoy a hard workout, I feel my natural pace is faster than Rec+ and slower than the current iteration of Intermediate. Fearing being spat out the back may add to the excitement (), but always feeling like you’re taking up the rear gets old.
Would also love to see more women coming out, and though I recognize family life commitments are a factor for many, the go-as-hard-as-possible culture may also play in for some.
I truly appreciate the WCC community, and the time and dedication of our ride leaders. Thanks Steve for facilitating this dialogue.
I think everyone here has made many great points that I very much agree with but I’ll add my 2 cents for what it’s worth.
I’m new to both the sport and the club this season. I ride gravel and slotted in with the Rec+ group right away with no problem. I think Bill, but really all the regulars in the group do a great job of helping new riders fit in because the culture is very take care of the group first. There’s pros and cons to every approach but I think everyone making that a priority shows when you ride in that group, we read the room and adjust pace and such but I think it removes some of the pressure on everyone knowing that ride is more about the fun and social elements first, rather than pure segments/pace.
I do personally agree with there being a bit of an issue with the next step. I like to think from a fitness standpoint I’m ready to take the next step but do find the jump quite large at the moment. To be honest I find it a little overwhelming to figure out what I should actually be working on to bridge that gap. I was just going to grind some fitness over the winter and hope to be up to the task in the spring. A step in between would be very helpful.
I certainly don’t know what the answer is but maybe there’s an opportunity to have a more casual intermediate ride mixed in, either on a different night or just as an additional option where the focus is less on pushing the limits and more on just the advertised pace and keeping the group together. I think some of the feedback from others sort of already highlights this when they talk about knowing what to expect depending on who else is riding or leading.
Regardless of what happens thank you for making this post. It’s helpful to see other people expressing the same concerns. Perhaps we have this conversation more often as well, looks like we might have already had another group right here and just didn’t know it.
Not to high jack this thread, but I do think many of the points raised for Intermediate gravel might also apply to Intermediate road. I’ve heard informally that it can be a difficult jump from Rec pace/distance to Intermediate pace/distance.
I fully agree Brent. I’d like to have this conversation for the road group too!
I see that intermediate paces got faster at times and bordered G3, and other times they were more intermediate pace. I do feel the efforts on Saturday to address this with great route planning and the idea that you can switch groups at the stop or drop back are good efforts. I think there’s more we can do still!
I have also heard a number of women express interest in trying to move up a group and feeling like it’s a huge jump and that it’s not clear what they’re jumping into. There were strong riders dropped on intermediate Saturday rides this year as well which doesn’t help.
Anyhow, thanks for raising the point Brent. And I’m happy to brainstorm ideas and discuss further anytime.
), but always feeling like you’re taking up the rear gets old.
